As the podcasting session draws to an end, Bxy brings out a whole bunch of pirated cd's talking about how they are all a kind of podcast. But there's no central authority through which you'll get your media content any more.




Session is now over and they're getting ready to go to next session but Bxy insists upon speaking more and he points out that if you buy a blank cd in the west, you pay tax but not sure if some of it goes to the copyright holders.


(particpants/speakers gather around to check out what exactly Bxy is up to :-D)


[In the IRC room I popped the question of what exactly the showcasing meant - what it signigied, to which Nick replied that it was regarding the tax part: When you buy a blank cd in europe for example, they think you actually buy it to copy music, or videos. So the music and video-industry get s a share of this tax as compensation]



(More interested people huddling round Bxy and his box of pirated CDs :-))

"hopesome" is moderating the session - on the mic at the moment:
Hopesome is introducing other podcasters: wang wei, ken, leo (Liu) and baixiaoyu



They're going to have an interactive discussion on podcasting which may not have any real outcome but hopes to cover issues of common concern.

Hopesome starts off with first question:
Podcasting is it a very new thing?

(guy #1) A guy comes up to podium, introduces himself as jack who is a former microsoft employee and does some stuff related to podcasting. He joins the panel.
He's doing a new podcasting site.

According to hopesome podcast is the next generation of broadcasting.

(guy #2): its a way for people to express their own voices
(guy #3): podcasting as extension of blogs, with the ability to do multimedia
(guy #4): technology advances give us the opportunity to express ourselves in new ways
(guy #5): easier to express through voice than through text
(guy #6): podcast is extension of blog

Hopesome asks how many people in the room are podcasters. about 10 raise their hands




He asks jack (#1) about the state of podcasting in china:
jack says theyre still in early stage here, in the states they've only been going for about a year. Theres probably 10-20 thousand chinese podcasters. Its not as intense as bloggers. Jack hopes they will eventually become a more habitual mode of expression.

Hopesome: itunes has caused podcasts to increase?
(#2) tudou replies: podcasting here is different than in the u.s. Many of the podcasts are just fun
but there are some interesting things, like one guy has been reading out each article of criminal law one by one into the podcasts.

(applause)

Using it as an educational tool.

Tudou gives some other examples of how people are using podcasts differently, recording conquests w/ girls, etc.


Hopesome continues asking questions, and asks bai xiaoyu what he thinks:

Bai Xiaoyu replies: everybody now has personal channel & its an issue of copyright.




At this point the podcasters are starting to argue about who has coppyright and who doesn't.

Its not like only pop stars and famous people have copyright
You have to respect people who do or don't want you to use their material
There isnt necessarily a direct relationship between podcast and music

Hopesome asks about fair use question:

bxy says: stop viewing yourself as a consumer. you are a creator
we cant think that only those authors and pop stars have copyright
the copyright laws aren't made to fit the current situation
they treat us all like consumers they dont anticipate that were all creators
but hes not encouraging people to pirate the popstars music he advocates ignoring it

question: how do you control your material
answer: political stuff pretty much all gets taken off
the porn is not hard to police
one guy points out - its amazing the extent to which chinese people are now willing to put photos of themselves and each other online

question: do you automate policing or human?
answer: you need people to do it. based on "i know it when i see it" principle





Guy #2: when web first existed in china there were a lot of people wanted to control but so far no big website has been shut down due to content posted on it. He says that the issue of controlling content is an issue but not insurmountable while big sites not shut down, smaller ones have been. This also has to do w/ the way in which big sites cooperate w/ authorities

Question of the cost of monitoring once volume increases: the filtering of text uses keywords, how do you use keywords for audio?

tudou says: once you get to a certain point there will be no way to control it all, nobody can stop this flow - unstoppable trend.



Tagged: cnbloggercon

Zhuang is talking about the use of blogs for education in china.

She's talking about use of blog as knowledge management for teachers. She says that because of the web, the way in which people learn has changed, no longer set by physical boundaries or traditional categories of knowledge



The learning behaviors manifested through the merging of people and blogs: the fundamentals of education have been affected by blogging. She's talking about how people don't have to be so constrained by the conventional categories of subject matter in their studies, thanks to blogs talking about the salon-style discussion groups.

People from different fields of study can come across one another on the web more easily than before thanks to the cross linking and therefore new ideas can come forth that might not have happened before.

So when people use blogs, their whole way of interacting with knowledge changes. You can put down deep roots and grow leaves and branches at the same time. You can get breadth as well as depth more easily than before.



She says a lot of educators are now using blogs in China since 2003: teachers writing blogs for their students. They are writing in their blogs in different ways than they would teach. They're much more experimental and personal. She's saying that the educational system and theory in china are based on western educational theory and she thinks that blogs might help chinese educators develop their own chinese educational methods while blogs can also be used for teacher training


There's a teacher who keeps a very detailed log of everything that happened in the classroom every day, then analyzes what might have been done differently and how the teaching methods could be improved. Its a great way for teachers to have a network to compare and learn from each other.

Kids can blog about their teachers as well, giving feedback.




Looking at the individual, how can blogs help the individuals learn?
People have their personality, their knowledge and abilities, and experiences, blogs might help people to bring forward and develop their unique qualities and abilities so that they can better realize their individual potential. Blogs will personalize the educational experience.

How does education interact with the individual?

She is giving her personal example:
from grade school, high school, to grad school she says she didnt understand what "scholarship" is, blogs will help us better understand the way we conduct education and enable us to educate our children better. Education isnt just memorization. its about growth, on the web people can be lifelong students.




Tagged: cnbloggercon

Introduction to speaker:
Rebecca Mackinnon was a journalist, with CNN for 10 years
She thinks what the bloggers in china are doing is really important and how the western media portrays china is often not satisfactory to chinese

The understanding of china through blogs

blogs are important to show how chinese are portraying china

We use Global Voice online
Globalvoices online tries to find bloggers from all around to write to gather blogger internationally

She is talking about her experience on GVO

We invited Chinese bloggers to participate and to let us know what is going on with the Chinese blogospere

The usual model is that China bloggers would take information internationlly and translate that and bring back to the Chinese sphere. bloggers outside of china know very little about china
Undersound: I can't hear anything
there is a famous blogger who translates Chinese blogs to English and it's now a famous blog

ESWN is a blog that translate schinese to english

EastSouthWestNorth is the blog name
www.zonaeuropa.com - Michael Anti's blog is the subject now
ESWN serves as a bridge blog

A lot of intellectually content is in Chinese
A lot of Westerners do not really know about how Chinese people think

A case in point is the chinese bloggers' discussion on Japan-related debates


This is the tag she's talking about: http://www.technorati.com/tag/cn_jp_dialog
How Chinese bloggers look at Sino-Japanese relatinoship - there are some people who say that Chinese folks should translate these blogs to facilitate communication with Japan

Like what Isaac said, Blogs should help people to communicate
Let's start our discussion in Hong Kong and to help deepen understanding


OIWAN will talk about http://www.inmediahk.net/
Going to the panel





*Rebeccas talking to a representative from InMedia* Can you tell us about the case in Hong Kong?

It's a site banned in hong Kong
Sorry
no a site banned in PRC
it's a site from Hong kong, banned in China
Sorry

Translation is very important. There is the problem of contextualizing the information
seems like a ban
so it's not just about word-to-word translation. Say for Hong Kong and Taiwan,
a lot of people do not understand Taiwan
so even though our languages are more or less the same
there is still a lot of contextual information we need to form connection
or to foster understanding

InMedia is actively seeking out information to translate
for examples websites like Global Voice
To engage people in conversation, it's not just about individual effort
It is impossible for one to maintain both Chinese and English websites; though we are more active in looking out for collaboration
to create a platform in Asia
so that not only Chinese, we can also learn more about other Asian countries, Korea, Japan...


Taiwan Speaker: he has founded a online newspaper and another site for blog hosting
The first one was banned in China
For the blog host, there are some problems we faces
we faced for example being banned in China



Tagged: cnbloggercon

We feel that whenever there is something confrontational between Taiwan and China,they were dismissed

even something we see as conversational online,
they cannot really represent true conservations.




Also when it comes to languages - English is not the big language
we started learning English since a kid
and we understand a lot of western countries lot more than Asia countries
but I think we should start to learn more about countries close to us

Problems about translation: Word-to-word translation is possible, and easy, but once a sentence is formed it is very hard to translate the full meaning
and this is one great problem for us
It took us a lot of effort to Chinese-ize the information available
There is not so many people talking about what they do, but to discuss on what other people have been doing


Functions of the New Media: he feels that during a conference that invited Asia representatives

Skyping now - they are calling a Taiwan guy - Qiao, is on the phone - they are holding a cell phone up to the microphone and listening to him speak (very roughly) but it works

'I'm now on my way, it's great that I can help contribute to this conference'

Rebecca: You really need Chinese to communicate with the Chinese
To communcate internationally: 2 problems (1) language
(2) we look at other countries through the lens of the media

InMedia: We looked at the story of TaiShi village through the lens of Guardian
In Hong Kong we don't really visit the BBS in China
so we ended up understanding the story in English through Western Media

Rebecca: It's a shame, it should be the other way round

InMedia: It is hard and we understand that language is a problem
we should not force other countries to learn out language
especially when they are having the burden of learning English, say the Philliphines
Say for Africa, they are quite invisible online

Rebecca: I lived in both area (taiwan China)
To resolve issues peacefully, communication is important
can you offer us any solutions?
as we now know that no language alone is a problem?


Taiwan: it's a beautiful question. In 2002 there were only 100-200 bloggers.
But the experience was refreshing, i learnt that Mainland Chinese are reading our blogs
and vice versa
and we were looking at Japanese blogs together
I feel that these conversations have enriched my understanding culturally
On a technical level I have tried to brush up my skills, so that I can help bridging different cultures together
To facilitate converstaions

Rebecca: there is no boundaries anymore with the advance of the internet. But we still see that there are some.
Do you think there is anyway to override the boundaries
Google the God

Andrew: there a lot of kids in the US are learnign Chinese right nwo
They feel that kids need to learn Chinese because there's a lot of businesses in China
So it's imperative that Wikipedia needs to be open in CHina
there is, currently, no equivalent encyclopedia in china

tonight at 7:00 we will have a gathering among the Shanghai/Beijing Wikipedians
You are invited on this

Do you see a trend that blogs can form an organization to promote blogs?
number5: many of us





The guy on the phone has just arrrived! He's from Taiwan

What is the relationship between blog and the media?

Taiwan representative answering the question: I started by using English to blog
we'd like to learn more about Chinese bloggers are doing

he's saying: when i first started blogging, i didm
ti don't think you can't really say that blogging was designed to have particular influence because afterall it's an individualized activity
he was lucky that he drew attention from the mainstream media
but he couldn't comment directly on the relatiionship between the media and blogging as he doesn't really belong to the media

InMedia: when we blog we have our social agenda
We devided posted by different categories
and by pulling in posts that fall into certain catagories,
you see the collectivity and social aspect of the blogosphere
And this is how we make blogging a collective and interactive activity

Question: English-related - as an ordinary person, In a world that is dominated by English, can we still express ourselves without having to resort to learning English?

Rebecca: good question: is there anyway to assign a tag to certain post
that people think as deserving international attention?
and people can translate that whenever they see there is that certain kind of tags attached to the post?
more or less the Wikipedian way
Once it's translated, people can access to culture-specific content internationally

Taiwan answer: I will use more picture, photos
I udnerstand pictures and photes are understood differently,
but we can help anchoring the meaning of these data with tags, say on flickr
If I can't get across information in English, or other languages, I would use photos and tags
Or even when I feel that I'm not professional enough to write something to describe the content
I would use Photos.
In sum I don' t think you have to use words to convey your ideas
Just like music,
when you're podcasting,
you can get across the rthym

Another Taiwanese folk:
one picture is worth a thousand words
The only successful case of translation was Disney
we should build up thing collectively
so that it can be fair across-platform

Newspaper representative: We are closely related to the WeMedia,
we intend to build up a website that invites the participations of the readers
I'm sharing my experience here - we feel that content on the internet is vast,
we are also adopting the OpenSource concept
Open source journalism
we do stories ourselves, and we investigate the stories on our own
And we ususally break out the story earlier than conventional media
To adopt the opensource model (developing source)
in digging in news
this should be a new trend in news production
FYI: http://www.etimeweekly.com

Rebecca: This is a new trend of news production
and actually international media are also adopting this kind of model

----------------------
There is a log of the conference via live transaltion on IRC Chat here: http://projects.socialbrain.org/irclogs/index.php?date=2005-11-05

Another live cam source broadcasting via flash: http://218.30.15.189/talkshow/cbc/CBC2005.swf

The chinese IRC live chat version is here:
http://www.seehaha.com/cbc.html
----------------------



Tagged: cnbloggercon

Isaac mao explaining why this conference is organized

Isaac says: "everybody is somebody", every blog has a position in the blogosphere

Issac Mao is now talking about development of chinese blogosphere
He is describing the evolution of blogs in china:

hard to say exactly what point it has arrived, exactly how developed chinese blogs are is hard to say.

isaac says: from 2002 isaac started to search for chinese blogs
and thats how he came across zheng xiaoyun, the blogger
and they decided to start cnblog.com

He was talking about his early experience of blogging in China
to explain to chinese how to start a blog at that time there were no chinese blog hosting companies so they wrote a blogging handbook for chinese bloggers
in 2002 he knew all of the chinese bloggers but by end of 2003 he had no way to know all of them now it's totally impossible to know all of them, there are so many of them
but there are a lot of chinese blogger superstars, and he really wants to meet all of them
theres a problem that if your blogroll gets over 150 blogs you get to info overflow

he's going to talk about methods he uses to keep on top of so many blogs
slide: from discrete to spectrum
there are a number of key events in chinese blog history: fanxingdong, muzimei, furong jiejie,etc

there is even a chinese soldier blogging
this is amazing
this shows how diversified the chinese blogosphere has become

so isaac says he knows there are people from all kinds of professions here
some who know each other or who have friends of friends
chinese blogosphere is reflecting a certain face of chinese society
hopes that blogs will represent a real grassroots voice of china

technorati: real time web

there is a tag: cnbloggercon
chinese bloggers are all using that tag

we are finding increasingly we have a live real-time web
that's the biggest development in the chinese blogosphere

he hopes that china will achieve 20-30 million bloggers in the next few years
that would also be good business for the blog hosting companies

so why does isaac write a blog?
lots of people ask him why he blogs every day
his mission in 2002-04 was to convince every 1 out of 10 people to blog
now no longer necessary cause so many people are already bloggers
blogging hasnt yet reached all corners of society but hoping that blogging will help to reflect all corners of chinese society in real time, eventually
hopes we can use our blogs as personal asset
lately chinese bloggers keep having to move their blog addresses and servers around
its like being homeless
but hopes that eventually our blogs will become our life's memory record

Issac's been in the IT business for 10 years
he finds that every time he moves from one job to another he leaves his knowledge behind
your blog is a way to have more continuity and to create your lifelong contribution to knowledge

lifelong business: how can you use your blog to create your lifelong business
from personal perspective its our personal asset
our social capital which we can maintain
hope that bloggers will view it that way
so here in china where some of the circumstances are not so good
bloggers should make demands to blog-hosting services about what services they need in order to turn their blogs into lifelong businesses and lifelong assets

next slide: from isolation to connection.
this meeting was organized largely online with very small budget

this meeting was organized through blogs
there are all kinds of blogs: photo, video, etc., we used all these kinds of tools to plan and promote the chinese blogger conference

as soon as we announced the conference 40-50 people immediately volunteered
everybody is a perticipant
everybody is citizen journalists
you can all report on this conference and voice your views about it.
there is no difference between organizers and participants anymore
now we need to think more how we should have more interaction between chinese bloggers and the rest of the world
most information has been going in one direction from english blogs to chinese blogs
much less going the other way,
but recently there has been more bidirectional information exchange
more and more people are doing translation in between english and chinese blogospheres
with the web, we have gone from isolated individuals to a network
we link together
people are interacting through links between each other,

yesterday was the first timemany of the organizers met each other but were already good friends online

the most important: how can we bring people together people more directly
how you can get to know the individual people online through their blogs

early blogger, zheng, we need computer connection directly into brain but blog is increasingly just like that, your brain online.

----- Thanks to Rebecca for the translation, i'm blogging this as the chat transcript goes on, i'll release the pod cast and webcast for it soon :)-----

Tagged: cnbloggercon

This should enable society to address problems in better ways



Issac talks about one group blog: with pakistanis and indians talking about their conflicts
more moderate people started posting together in a conversation and dialogue to dicuss the problems

this group blog helped people become more understanding of each others' views
there are a lot of these kinds of examples
Issac hopes that a lot of social problems in china can in future be solved through blogs

About one month ago ii had an idea. (isaac had an idea)
I found it very exciting, in china there's lots of e-commerce, c-to-c model, ebay, taobao, etc. People are linked together w/ transactions but you don't get to know the people behind the transactions
how can we use blogs to create c-to-c model?

Issac has thought of a tag called bbcc?
hoping to do this through technorati
the bbcc tag that Issac is talking about: http://www.technorati.com/tags/bbcc
can layer together technorati, flickr, etc etc and create the worlds biggest c2c model
He talks about different kinds of blogs: personal diaries, small group communities, media

Some chinese superstar bloggers have emerged: they can make money w/ ads, etc
others dont want to commercialize, just want their blogs for friends and associates
some people dont care about links and tags because they're not interested in building a big network
thats fine

created new noun: "pro-am" - professional amateur
in past: professional journalists
then tehre are the bloggers

but they are very amateur bcz they dont want to make money
others, through their blogging, come across issues they really want to examine and research and become experts

wikipedia is a great example of this tho unfortunately its now blocked in china
isaac feels bad that wikipedia is blocked
there are a lot of wikipedians here who hope that it will be visible again in china
lots of audiences can now become creators
in past ordinary people never imagined they could become encyclopedia authors
there are 40 thousand chinese wikipedians
they are doing a great service to create platform for education and information
blog has similar value
people can position themselves in different parts of the continuum between amateur and professional
be amateur on some things and expert on others
with such a big community of grassroots, everybody finds their own path
somebody may be an IT professional but creates a fabulous food blog and becomes a food expert

Its not like you have to have a big college degree in order to be expert
No longer can college grads look down on people who are writing expertly online

Isaac cites dan gillmor's "we the media"
Isaac is explaining the educational values of wikipedia
talking about how people are becoming citizen journalists
Blog is a primitive source of knowledge/information generation

Issac says: look at google, when you do google searches on topics, more and more blog entries come up in chinese.
increasingly our social knowledge is being created by blogs
from 1-2 to 20-30... increasingly blogs return in google search
this is a tremendously good use for education
shanghai education network is using blogs
as an education tool
the most improtant value for blog is not just writing, but enables people to share what's on their minds in an un-structured way
Knowledge Management

in past, you could only share information with society in the structure given to you by authorities
thats not the kind of information tools that we want

we want to have ways to share info freely
universal conversation
some people like to create a very big structured thing, others create a very unstructured impressionistic product that is very natural and beautiful
like the ocean washing up on the shore, blogs wash up all kinds of things onto the shores of our consciousness
so now the question is that people feel that they have info overload. no time to read all the blogs out there
but dont worry, new tools will emerge that will help us organize and find knowledge
rss technology is very important
this kind of technology is developing continuously
we can find people and watch them through rss feeds
the blogosphere may seem very chaotic, but we're developing mechanisms to find what we want
in future we will be able to leave our memory behind even after we die
people can go to our url after our body is gone
but dont fear that the unstructured form of the blogosphere will bring chaos
it will actually create more social good this way
and there are more tools being invented

Issac talks a bit about his view on blogs and media

Ant and Media (slide) http://www.microcontentnews.com
when ants discover a piece of food, more and more pile onto it, then eventually take it apart and carry it back to the anthill
blogs are similar
what the individual blogger says may not be so important, but its how other people quote him, and how others link, and how the power of that idea grows

it used to be that the professional media had to take a certain amount of time to report an event
now the blogs instantly start examining an event from every angle.

slide: "dna and meme"
meme is cultural dna
like dna, the combination of different memes creates different things
memes can travel virally across the world in minutes
in future will be seconds
we have a real time web
final slide: "more zeores than ones"
we are all grassroots. we are all small voices
but when the zeroes add together, they're greater than "1"
0+0+0+0+0=google adsense
the combination of all these small voices will make our society smarter

Issac hopes we can have more offline meetings
and get to know each other better
hope to have another even bigger blogger conference next year.
Now Q&A:

----------------------------
View the speakers at the conference over cam here:
http://www.seehaha.com/cbc.html

View the audience @ conference over cam here: http://www.seehaha.com/play.cfm?which=1940

Upload and tag your photos to flickr here http://www.flickr.com/photos/tags/cnbloggercon/clusters/

----------------------------

Tagged: cnbloggercon